Door/window question

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Door/window question

Post by crice63 on Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:20 am

So these big doors are a design challenge, and it looks like the engineers tinkered with them a bit every year. My 75 Elco driver door currently has three of the window support braces. Two have the felt on them, and one does not, the one closest to the door latch (far left if you are sitting in the drivers seat and looking at the door). These braces do double duty, as they provide the space for the top door panel to clip onto, so they haev to all be the same height. This last brace doesn't look like the other two, it is taller than the others (because it sits a lower shelf in the door). Question--is this the correct brace? Should it have felt? (it does not have any glue/felt remnants on it).

Next--when my window is not completely down or completely up, on bumps it will whack the inner door shell back by the latch. Should the window be that loose? If so, what should keep it from whacking the bare metal all the time?

This all came up because the 73 parts car has 4 good felted braces, but they are in different places. I figured I might switch mine out, but found that the 73 braces won't fit that back position (not tall enough).

Odd brace on left, regular brace on right:


With just a little pressure, the window when halfway up will flop over and whack the metal by the window guide.

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Re: Door/window question

Post by Mcarlo77 on Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:02 am

Yeah...that back window guide is not correct. It needs to be the taller one with felt. That would keep the glass from banging against the metal. I've removed many door panels (just removed glass from a '77 Malibu over the weekend) and have never seen three window guides used. So, who knows what's going on there. But, the rear one is essential and must be the correct one.

Also, I notice the black bracket is broken (missing the horizontal "rib" that aids in guiding/securing the window into proper position when rolled up). I would say 75-80% of the ones I see in the junk yards are broken. I have some if needed.
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Re: Door/window question

Post by crice63 on Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:44 am

Good catch, I didnt even notice. The parts car has one good one and one bad one I think. This weekend I will take the passenger door apart and see How it looks, then let you know if I need anything. So do most doors just use the front and rear positions and no center brace for the window?

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Re: Door/window question

Post by crice63 on Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:32 pm

When I was taking the parts car door panels off--the bottoms are in really good shape--I removed the armrests to clean them. They were really dirty and I thought in poor condition. The ones in my car are a blight on the interior.





I had tried cleaning them several times, to no avail. On the parts car armrests the cover will come off the metal frame. They weren't very rusty, so I soaked them in CLR overnight and they came out well. The covers on my car are glued to the frame, and are much more rusty.





I will paint them to help prevent future rust, and use these.  The parts car covers cleaned up great, whereas mine are terminal from whatever sticky mess has gripped them, so I'll be going with the new set (well, newer to me--they are after all from 1973 and mine from 1975, but I guess it's all about maintenance).


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Re: Door/window question

Post by Mcarlo77 on Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:08 pm

Interesting...I didn't know some armrest covers detached from their metal backing. Guess I never explored it. And, you're right...those armrests can be a b#tch to clean.

Regarding the window guides...yes, typically one up front and other at the rear. No reason there can't be one in the middle, though.
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Re: Door/window question

Post by 73ss on Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:46 pm

I had my top panel off this past year and noticed that there was a spot for a 3rd guide/felt in the middle. Figured it got lost, but I didn't see any marks where the bolt would have been.
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Re: Door/window question

Post by crice63 on Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:06 am

So I checked out my window guides from the 73 Laguna, both were broken but one was usable for now. The 73 and 75 are slightly different--75 is all plastic while 73 has a metal base riveted to it. But the action part is all plastic on both.



I took the passenger door panel off my car and found it to be set up like the driver side--3 braces with the last one being the odd one out--tall and no felt. I think my car was redone between 5-10 years ago, other details suggest this, like some welding work, some interior parts replaced, paint job. I'm wondering of the doors weren't done by someone who just wasn't familiar with these cars.



The window guide on this side was busted too. Looking closely at my salvaged braces, I did notice that two were taller than the other two, so I put one of the taller ones in that last position. It didn't seem tall enough, that is, it's lower than the other two.



But I decided I would try it anyway. I adjusted it and the busted window guide so that the window sealed when the door shuts (well, that word "sealed" must be taken with a grain of salt, but there is not a gap wide enough for birds to fly in). When I snapped the top panel back in place, it seemed to fit nicely, snug but without being too forced. So I think that somehow the slightly lower level for that last brace is either how it is supposed to be or within the tolerance zone. On the drivers side I put in the other tall brace and it looked good. I superglued that crack in the 73 window guide and bolted it in but haven't put the panel back on. When I drive it tomorrow I will see if the widow is still banging. I painted the armrest frames but no pics yet, they are still drying. Hope to get them on tomorrow.

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Re: Door/window question

Post by crice63 on Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:54 pm

Painted the armrest supports and the metal supports for the dashboard. Not for looks obviously, just rust abatement. Got the covers back on the armrests and the drivers lower panel back on the door. Looks much better, and should last another 40 years. With my correct window braces in, no more banging over bumps and potholes. Small steps!










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Re: Door/window question

Post by Mcarlo77 on Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:33 am

Lookin' good! And, glad you got the rattling window resolved.
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Re: Door/window question

Post by crice63 on Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:40 am



I'm going to keep on with this thread because I'm doing more window work and it might be related. After a few days riding with improved window fitment, the vertical roller popped off. I got in it yesterday and took it apart--trickier than it looks. I was first going to pop the stud back in the roller but the roller had cracked and the stud was loose in the window. To tighten it one needs the old special tool. The spanner wrench for my grinder has the two bumps that look like they might fit in these crazy GM window nuts, but I couldn't find it--good thing I don't need to change the wheel on it now--so I ground down (or grinded down?) a 9/16 Taiwan socket to fit. I tried it out on the parts car, worked great, but my rusty Elco nuts wouldn't budge. I sprayed them down with Blaster and let them sleep overnight, and got them off today.





The first pic shows the 75 Elco parts. The two window nuts with plastic washers, the stud, a spring that fits on the stud, narrow at the base and wide end seated in the rectangular plastic piece, behind which the wheel sits inside the channel. The stud is especially rusty.

The next pic adds the 73 Laguna version on the right, which looks like all the 68-72 replacement parts I found in all the Parts shops online.  No spring or spring seat, just the stud and roller. If the repro ads are a guide, the roller comes preattached on the stud, though it looks to me like they are intended to snap onto the stud.

This Dorman 74407 looks pretty close, but it's hard to tell. http://www.dormanproducts.com/itemdetail.aspx?ProductID=11375&SEName=74407. The 73 and 75 studs are the same length, so I guess I could run with the earlier one. One might think that the introduction of the spring was a solution to some engineering problem, but who knows? It's not a big deal, but if there are correct studs out there I'd just as soon get them if they are comparable price. Actually the best thing would be to just find a good roller. I wire-brushed and painted the nuts and stud to inhibit rust, so if I had a good roller I'd just pop it on and go. I superglued mine with the crack but surely that will just open up again when I pop the stud in.

Have any experienced G3GMers out there found a good working solution?


Last edited by crice63 on Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Door/window question

Post by bigredlaguna on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:09 am

I used a Dorman part to fix this roller a while back. It was the only one that had the right size roller, but I had to remove it from the stud it came with and install it on the factory stud. It was a tricky job.
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Re: Door/window question

Post by Mcarlo77 on Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:58 pm

From what I've read online from others who have faced this issue, there is no correct repro roller assembly available.

I wasn't aware the roller itself could be removed/replaced without compromising it's ability to stay in place on the shaft when in use.
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Re: Door/window question

Post by crice63 on Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:59 pm

Mcarlo77 wrote:I wasn't aware the roller itself could be removed/replaced without compromising it's ability to stay in place on the shaft when in use.

I thought much the same. It stands to reason that if something can be snapped on, it can be snapped off, especially with the additional spring loaded pressure on my setup. Of course, one design cure would be to snap it on from the opposite end, sliding it over the shaft so that the snap off pressure would pull opposite to the direction it went on. GM did not avail themselves of this solution here, however. I guess we can add this to the list of "things one needs to grab at the JY when one finds them in good shape."

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Re: Door/window question

Post by Mcarlo77 on Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:17 pm

I've pulled a couple of those (think I still have one) and they aren't easy to get off the glass out in the junk yards...even with that cheap-A$$ special tool they sell on e-Bay. Always afraid I'll shatter the glass if I'm too forceful with it.
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Re: Door/window question

Post by crice63 on Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:18 am

I found an 83 Regal in the JY that used the 73 style vertical roller, with just the stud and roller. I popped off the roller and when I did so, it left a slight indentation on the inside lip. So when I got home, I took the 73 roller and popped the roller off straight up so it came off clean. I cleaned it up and snapped it onto my 75 stud. Unfortunately I forgot to grease it up first, so I took a few minutes to work some grease into it a little. Still it would not roll easily. I figured that rolling wasn't so much the issue as just sliding well in the channel. To get the whole thing into the channel I had to loosen the channel and tilt it sideways (some ridge at the door bottom conspires to keep the roller in the channel). It was challenging to screw that window nut into place with the stud fixed in the channel, but it got done. There was a lot of squeaking with the window going up and down so I started greasing moving parts. Nothing helped until I finally sprayed some into the short little roller channel right behind the armrest mount. That cured all the noise at once.

Also I never noticed the regulators are riveted in. The remaining play in my window is due to sliding at the rivets. I guess GM was saving money? I removed the regulators from a 69 Elco a while ago and it wasn't riveted. That 83 Regal wasn't riveted, and my 85 S10 regulators aren't riveted--all bolts. I wonder if that is a weak spot in our cars.

Some time back I had taken the mirror control wires out of their little channel in the door because the knot it created prevented my mirror from moving very well, or at all. After rolling so much today I saw the window catch on the mirror wires a few times, and I think that's what derailed it last week. So I put the wires back in their channel, so they are away from the window, but no more mirror control. Has anybody figured out a routing for the mirror wires that keeps them out of the way of the window but also keeps them free enough to move easily?

I was eyeing the electric door looks in the regal, they looked like they could fit our cars pretty well, but I have enough projects going on now.

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Re: Door/window question

Post by riddick75 on Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:36 pm

I have a question of my own. the rear guide (middle one in pic) is kinda tall and has a rectangle in it. both elkys I got (one for parts and one Im working on) both look the same. is there padding or anything that clips in it or just bare metal? And does anyone know where the long curved hook ones goes (first one in pic). and I think the last one is in the front as a guide but same thing is there any kind of padding thats supposed to be on it? none that I have had anything that I can tell. like no dried glue or any trace. any help would be obliged.


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Re: Door/window question

Post by Mcarlo77 on Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:51 pm

I can tell you the one on the left mounts at the front center of the door (hook pointing downwards). There is an oval shaped hole maybe 6"-8" back from the front edge where it's bolted.

Can't help on the other two.
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Re: Door/window question

Post by riddick75 on Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:24 am

ok thank you. thats one less. I figured out the one on the right is the window up stop. so just gotta figure out if there is supposed to be something on the one in the middle. I took it off both cars in the position right next to the plastic/resin alignment piece when the window is full up.
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Re: Door/window question

Post by Hawk03 on Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:25 pm

Are the braces different from the front of the door to the rear? Wondering if I can switch the one from the front to the rear. I think the rear one on my drivers door is too short which is keeping the door panel from fastening onto the brace.



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Re: Door/window question

Post by pila on Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:36 pm

The catalog from The El Camino Store has a break-down of the door guts, for the '73-'77, which may help with identifying some of the parts. Some parts are available from them, but not many...

Bill

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Re: Door/window question

Post by Mcarlo77 on Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:51 pm

Tall one goes on the back...short one on the front.
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Re: Door/window question

Post by Hawk03 on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:21 am

Mcarlo77 wrote:Tall one goes on the back...short one on the front.

Thanks. Seems simple enough, lol.
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