Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

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Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by JF74chevelle on Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:47 pm

I've been tuning the edelbrock 600 cfm on my current motor and it runs well, I think it will run good enough for awhile on the new motor. I plan to upgrade to a Holley 650 ultra double pumper. Is this a step in the right direction? Set up is 357 with Brodix 180cc heads comp cam 274 hydraulic flat tappet. Edelbrock EPS Intake, HEI, long tube headers with bullet mufflers. Muncie four speed with 3.73 truetrac in the the back.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by fasrnur on Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:58 pm

I'm sure you'll get a wide variety of opinions on this subject sir. So here's mine...."Throw the Edelbrock as far as you can and go with the Holley!"

I myself prefer a quadrajet, but I don't have the motor you do either. Very Happy
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by JF74chevelle on Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:05 pm

Hahahahaha, the edelbrock gets a lot of hate but I think it's pretty decent for a mild street 350 or 327.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by JF74chevelle on Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:39 pm

Also for the hell of it I spoke to Patrick at prosystems about a carb, he recommended a Pro series 4150 at 780cfm for $640. Seems like a lot of carb but it isn't much more expensive than an ultra double pumper.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by Joe73 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:24 pm

A 650 will be great on the street.  The only issue I see is with the ultra double pumper.  Its a mechanical secondary carb.  I wouldnt recommend it on the street.  When I took my car apart I sold my mechanical 650 in favor of a 750 vacuum secondary.  
My experiences with the mechanical secondary carb have been ok.  I'm running  a 4.10 gear so my rpms are normally "up there".  But I could on occasion, at lower rpms, jump on it and get a little bog from the carb dumping too much fuel too quick.  If I were on the track, then I'd be running a mechanical.  Previous to my 650 mechanical I ran a 600 and a 650 both with vacuum secondaries with adjustable spring kit on them.  Switch the springs around til you get the secondaries to open when you need them.  No bog on the street.  Just a nice heavy, constant pull from the motor.

Just my opinion from my experiences.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by JF74chevelle on Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:04 pm

Okay I'll look into it thank you
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by pila on Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:30 pm

The Edelbrock of course is a copy of the venerable Carter, which was a good carb.
Most problems I've heard from friends have been machining debris inside of the carbs, like they were never cleaned after the machining process. In fact, a friend has two on an Edelbrock manifold, and it ran like crap, until he got pissed & tore both apart, to find shavings and metal chips in side the float bowls. He called Edelbrock & raised hell with them...

No excuse for that severe lack of quality control....

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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by JF74chevelle on Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:26 am

I bought the edelbrock when I was like 15 or 16 and I'm 18 now. It has done me well. Here in SoCal I done need a choke so I think I might go with an AED 650. Done a lot of research and I like what I have read about the company and their carbs.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by bracketchev1221 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:20 am

I think you'll be happy with the AED carb.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by REVINKEVIN on Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:36 pm

Go here and scroll down to the bottom of the page. Fill in the spaces and there you go. They all come up 600 to 650 carbs.

https://www.holley.com/support/carburetor/
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by BBMALIBU on Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:33 pm

I purchased a Holley 950HP carb a while back and learned that it was really an 830CFM carb.  This carb is still sold today.
If I ever buy a carb from Holley again, it will only be from their Classic line.

I have used both Vacuum and Mechanical secondary Holley carbs on the street (mostly mech).  

As long as you have the accelerator pump adjusted with the appropriate squinters and cam,
you shouldn't have a problem with bogging with a mechanical secondary carb.

I ditched (sold on eBay) the 950HP and bought a ProSystem 1000 from Patrick and the carb performs great.

You won't regret getting a carb from ProSystems, or choosing one from Quickfuel, AED, or a Classic Holley.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by JF74chevelle on Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:43 pm

BBMALIBU wrote:I purchased a Holley 950HP carb a while back and learned that it was really an 830CFM carb.  This carb is still sold today.
If I ever buy a carb from Holley again, it will only be from their Classic line.

I have used both Vacuum and Mechanical secondary Holley carbs on the street (mostly mech).  

As long as you have the accelerator pump adjusted with the appropriate squinters and cam,
you shouldn't have a problem with bogging with a mechanical secondary carb.

I ditched (sold on eBay) the 950HP and bought a ProSystem 1000 from Patrick and the carb performs great.

You won't regret getting a carb from ProSystems, or choosing one from Quickfuel, AED, or a Classic Holley.


I really like the AED and what I have been reading and researching about them. Kinda heard that the prosystems have dropped off on quality in the past few years. But Patrick seemed to be very involved but I just don't think I need a 780cfm for my street car.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by bracketchev1221 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:47 pm

You don't want to hear my Pro Systems nightmare.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by JF74chevelle on Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:41 pm

bracketchev1221 wrote:You don't want to hear my Pro Systems nightmare.

Oh yes I do, just for future reference.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by thatfnthing on Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:55 pm

bracketchev1221 wrote:You don't want to hear my Pro Systems nightmare.

I personally love a good story... PopCorn
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by BBMALIBU on Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:56 pm

JF74chevelle wrote:
bracketchev1221 wrote:You don't want to hear my Pro Systems nightmare.

Oh yes I do, just for future reference.

thatfnthing wrote:
bracketchev1221 wrote:You don't want to hear my Pro Systems nightmare.

I personally love a good story... PopCorn

X3
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by bracketchev1221 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:26 pm

To keep the story, short I had an 1100 dominator done by Patrick on my 540. I was making a cylinder head and cam change and he told me that carb is too small you need a larger one. So no problem, I sent in my 1100 as a credit on a 1200 dominator. Put the engine in the car and first day out the car runs fine on 3 passes and go home. Take the car out for a bracket day and notice in second round of eliminations the car has a stutter at the top of second gear. RPM just stops for a split second and the car slows down. Well anyway the car started repeating this condition every 4 th pass, and got worse on the 5th pass. I was usually slow by a tenth by 3rd round of eliminations and could not win. I replaced, ignition coils, MSD boxes, fuel pumps, fuel filters, rewired the car, valve springs, valve spring heights, ran ground wires from head to head and to the frame. I think I changed the tach because it was connected to the ignition, I mean I replaced everything. Finally I give up and call Patrick. he tells me replace the ignition coil for the third time. Tells me the carb CANNOT be the issue. I finally borrow a Bob Book built 1150 carburetor. The car went 5 rounds in eliminations with no stutter. I tell Patrick what I found, no way its the carb but send it back. I sent it back and he told me they found nothing. Put it back on the car and the stutter is back. When I posted on yellowbullet asking for help, he jumped on me telling me that he ran the carb on another car at the track and did all this testing and it ran fine. But he never mentioned any of this testing to me when I asked what they did. just that they had inspected it. Funny. Anyway then he tells me maybe the carb is just too big for your engine send it back. So what do I get in return, AN 1100 DOMINATOR!!!!! I took it and promptly sold it never even taking it out of the box. I bought a modified 1150 carb from Dale Cubic at CFM Technologies and after 7 years, I HAVE NEVER EVEN CHANGED THE JETS IN IT. It is that good. I will NEVER buy another Pro Systems carb EVER.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by thatfnthing on Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:47 pm

Thanks, that was worth the wait!
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by BBMALIBU on Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:22 pm

Although I have not had any issues with my carb,
I trust bracketchev's opinion any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

JF74chevelle, it might be worth a call to CFM.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by JF74chevelle on Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:23 pm

Hahaha, thank you For the story. I have heard a few of these horror stories about pro systems and I'll look into CFM carbs
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by bracketchev1221 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:47 pm

Yeah it was a long ordeal that cost me 1000's of dollars to chase down. Now don't get me wrong, if your pro systems carb works hey good for you. My first 1100 gave me no issues. My friend bought an 850 from him that worked ok. But if it doesn't work, just be prepared.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by BBMALIBU on Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:44 am

bracketchev1221 wrote:Put the engine in the car and first day out the car runs fine on 3 passes and go home.  Take the car out for a bracket day and notice in second round of eliminations the car has a stutter at the top of second gear.  RPM just stops for a split second and the car slows down.  Well anyway the car started repeating this condition every 4 th pass, and got worse on the 5th pass.  I was usually slow by a tenth by 3rd round of eliminations and could not win.   

To me, this problem is so out of the ordinary.

I would really like to know why the carb was acting up this way.

It works, then progressively acts up.

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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by bracketchev1221 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:45 am

I thought it was heat related.  I tried wrapping the carb and intake in wet towels after runs trying to stop it but to no help.  It seemed ok in the morning during time runs and first round because the runs were spaced apart and it was cooler.  Then second round was sooner and it would stumble in second gear, third round came sooner and it would stumble in second and third.  Usually I never got past 5 runs and I was on my way home.   Like I said I even chased the theory of valvespring harmonics that the springs were losing control at that rpm frequency.  I changed the spring heights to change the natural frequency of the spring.  Then I even put a second set of springs on the engine.  I was really going nuts chasing it.
It didn't make sense for ignition or fuel, because after the stutter which occurred at like 6700 if I remember, the car would then accelerate to 7400.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by BBMALIBU on Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:53 am

bracketchev1221 wrote:When I posted on yellowbullet asking for help, he jumped on me telling me that he ran the carb on another car at the track and did all this testing and it ran fine.  But he never mentioned any of this testing to me when I asked what they did.  just that they had inspected it.

If this happened to me, this would have been my response:

Patrick, the stuttering problem still existed after you examined and supposedly tested the carb at the track.  So I decided to try my friends AED 1150 Dominator to eliminate the possibility that this problem is related to the carburetor.  While using the AED carb over several days and many runs, this problem never once occurred.  Therefore, the problem is indeed related to the carburetor.  Thank you for all your help and support.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

Post by bracketchev1221 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:47 pm

BBMALIBU wrote:
bracketchev1221 wrote:When I posted on yellowbullet asking for help, he jumped on me telling me that he ran the carb on another car at the track and did all this testing and it ran fine.  But he never mentioned any of this testing to me when I asked what they did.  just that they had inspected it.

If this happened to me, this would have been my response:

Patrick, the stuttering problem still existed after you examined and supposedly tested the carb at the track.  So I decided to try my friends AED 1150 Dominator to eliminate the possibility that this problem is related to the carburetor.  While using the AED carb over several days and many runs, this problem never once occurred.  Therefore, the problem is indeed related to the carburetor.  Thank you for all your help and support.

I asked him and got nothing but attitudes back. The yellowbullet was after I was done talking to him. He told me the carburetor is an inanimate object that cannot change so if it works at the beginning of the day it will work at the end. It was only when I went on yellowbullet to say that they replaced the idle bleeds and nothing else and how I didn't understand what it had to do with the high rpm condition, that he went on my post and told everyone how much testing and dynoing they did to the carb. When I asked how come you didn't tell me this when I asked what was done there was no response. What was frustrating was Patrick didn't even see the carburetor. The carb went to Michigan and he was in different state only answering emails.
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Re: Holley 650 ultra Double pumper

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